Ep.113 Cloud Powerhouse Unveiled How Managed Services Elevate Azure and AWS! Pt. 3/3

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Don’t miss this episode as we wrap up the popular hyperscaler track titled: Cloud Powerhouses Unveiled: Elevating AWS & Azure with Managed Services! Our amazing partner jumping in today is Nick Hawley from Portfolio Communications. Nick has a historied past from Molecular Biology to now being this amazing customer advocate at Portfolio and is so incredibly passionate about technology in what his customers need. Nick tackles key topics such as how to expand in accounts, what he’s seen with customers, and how he’s been able to help them no matter what the environment. Listen long enough and you might even hear about how he helped a customer at their worst when the FBI had been asking questions. You’ll have to listen in to catch those details!

Welcome to the podcast that’s designed to fuel your success in selling technology solutions. I’m your host, JoshLupresto SVP of Sales Engineering atTelarus and this is Next Level BizTech.

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Hey, everybody. Welcome back here. We are on this week with the wonderful, the amazing Mr. Nick Hawley of Portfolio Communications, and we are talking about cloud powerhouses, more specifically managed services, elevating Azure and AWS. Nick, welcome on, man. Hey there. Hi. Thanks for having me, Josh. Excited to get you on, man. Love Portfolio, awesome partner. We’re going to talk about you guys in just a second. First of all, though, I want to hear about you. Tell us a little bit of backstory. How’d you get into this field? Was it linear? Was it windy? What was it?

Super linear, the standard path. You know, went, got a biochemistry degree and a molecular biology degree and started off as a lab bench scientist. So obviously things didn’t go quite as planned for those years out of high school and college, and you start to think of what you want to do with your life. And now here I am, basically a partner advisor and an agent. So a little different. It was a lot of steps. I got to, hang on. I got to ask, like, how do you, first of all, I don’t think we’ve ever had anybody with a molecular biology path on the call. I know. I’ve learned a lot of crazy things about people on these calls. But how does that, where does that pivot happen? Where do you go? All right, I’m not going this way. Now I’m going this way. Chance. I think just life presents opportunities and they sound interesting. And I’m an investigator by nature. That’s probably what drew me to science. I had a very long career ahead of me, a very long path to get to where I thought I wanted to be, which I think would have been fascinating and interesting, but it was going through med school and becoming kind of a hybrid of research and a physician. I sort of knew exactly how things were going to go for the next 10, 15, 20 years. You know exactly how hard the workload is going to be and the amount of money you’re going to make is all very predictable. And it’s, it’s a painful process. And so I was going to take an extra year off before med school and just had a very fortunate opportunity present itself. It was a friend of mine who said, Hey, you’re always for trying things way outside your comfort zone. He said, you should try doing sales for your, because no matter what you do in life, it’ll help you out having done this. It’s kind of like being a server or a bartender at a restaurant.

You get a better understanding of people. And I think everyone should do those types of roles at least once in their life because it helps you out. So he offered me a job kind of on the spot. And I took it and really liked a few things about it. Not a sales guy. That’s the part I didn’t love about it, but I love the competitive nature of it. And it got me into the tech field. It was a SaaS company and it was just sort of one thing led to another there. And now here I am 12, 13 years of portfolio. Love it. Love it. Let’s, let’s talk about that. We had, we had Ray Clausen on in a previous season. If you haven’t, if anybody hasn’t listened to that, you’re missing out. Go back and listen. Why am I even here? If you had Ray on, he’s the smart guy at Portfolio. Hey, hey, there’s, it turns out there’s a lot of smart guys there. So we got to talk to them all eventually. Yeah. Tell us, tell us a little bit more about kind of your role, who Portfolio is for anybody that’s not familiar and kind of what do you, what do you guys differentiate in the market as a partner? So we’re, we’re a Pacific Northwest base. Started off as a legacy telecom agent, like a lot of the ones. So Portfolio is over 20 years now and had those first years that so many did when it was PRIs and, you know, MPLS frame relay, all those types of circuits.

They evolved over time. And what kind of makes Portfolio different is we don’t do a whole lot of the project based engagement that some partners do. And there’s no right way to do it. I know wildly successful partners that approach it completely different ways, but we really focus on becoming a partner to our customers. So at times we’ll have six, nine months of advising and meeting with them, just talking about projects they’re working on to just help them with their business that don’t result in any revenue for us. We’re not selling any, anything we’re not doing, bringing any vendors to the table, but eventually over a long enough timeline, what that leads to is we, we get wide in the company because we end up talking to people about a lot of different things within their business. And we ended up doing absolutely every project with them over long enough. So I think that’s what differentiates Portfolio a bit is, is we have such long-standing relationships. We almost never lose a customer under any circumstances. So it’s a lot, it’s a lot of fun. Love it. Let’s talk about lessons learned. So if you go back, call it the last 13 years, as far back as you want to go, what are, you know, as you’re out there, you know, working with vendors, you’re talking to customers, you’re in deals, you’re in strategy. What are some of the key lessons that you’ve had over this past period?

That’s over that much time, that’s hard to answer. There’s so much to learn and it never stops, but maybe that’s a lesson itself. But I think from a engaging new customers, trying to get a client, the thing that’s amazed me the longer I’m involved with enterprises and whether they’re medium size, sort of the top 2000 size companies or all the way up to the Fortune 100s. There’s a perception you have of companies, you see a logo and you think they’re put together and things are going super smoothly. And the more I get involved in the corporate world, the more it amazes me just how chaotic and disorganized things can be. Once you get in there and really start looking under the covers, everyone needs a tremendous amount of help, at least in a few places. And all these IT leaders, they know it too. They know that things are an absolute mess when it comes to our security posture and they need to make drastic improvements there. Or they know they’ve got ancient applications sitting in a closet somewhere running on an AS400 and they’ve been closing their eyes and burying their head in the sand for a decade and they need to do something about it. So the biggest lesson is don’t assume anything about these customers. There’s so much to be learned about the opportunity within them and even smaller companies can have tremendously sized projects that can be really lucrative and give you success for a lot of years. I love it. I think we’re going to be 100. We’re still going to be doing this.

And AS400s are still going to be around. It’s amazing. I’ll never forget these things just, as long as the wind doesn’t blow the right, the wrong way. They live forever, but I’ll never forget what this customer said to me was, “I have an AS400. I need my team to be spending more on our x86 infrastructure, our VMware, our Azure transition, all this stuff. What am I going to do to get somebody to support this AS400? Do I call the local assisted living facility and see if anybody there knows?” He’s like, “Or can you help me? I don’t know what to do.” But it’s an honest question, right? That’s what, to your point, when you really uncover all this stuff, there’s just messes upon messes and so much to help.

We do a fair chunk of business with government. And it’s really interesting because they’re just in a different boat, obviously lagging an adopter of a lot of things. But the applications that run things like your employment security, your health and social services, all those from state to state, this was maybe two or three years ago, I want to say 60% of the applications were still COBOL. When you talk about the scale of transitioning those and modernizing them, and some are being replaced by modern SaaS companies that are coming in and just doing a complete forklift move, but a lot of them have to be rewritten because they’re homegrown applications. That process is going to take so long. And yet the other statistic that went with that was that the average tenure of the folks working for the state, I think they were something like 70% of them were within five years of retirement or within 10 years of retirement. So you add those two things together and it’s a bit terrifying considering you’re not getting fresh kids out of college that know COBOL real well. Yeah, no kidding. Oh my gosh, COBOL, I love it. All right. So let’s talk about, today we’re talking about elevating this value of managed services. We’re talking about AWS, we’re talking about Azure.

As you’ve been in a lot of these conversations, talk to me about some of the challenges, maybe a big challenge that you see customers who are thinking AWS and Azure and why? Why does managed services elevate that? The universal challenge for me is that they have a very difficult time quantifying value to the rest of the business units. So when they’re making any decision, any shift towards more cloud consumption or moving off of their internal data center, it’s very difficult to communicate that value and prove it to the other business units. And then the other thing is the predictability of their resources, I think has been a consistent difficulty. Most of these folks don’t have the engineers on staff in house to maintain the applications and do the changes necessary over time. So you combine those two and it’s definitely lagged the adoption of this stuff. I mean, cloud was the craze for a long time. It was the buzzword and it still has a ton of market availability. I would say any partner could focus just on that and be wildly successful. So those are definitely the two difficulties that I see. Do you see though, like if I think about when you first talked to a customer, sometimes you talk to these customers and they don’t know where you can help them. And then when they really start to uncover some of their pain points, do you think customers know how much managed service providers can really help them versus how much they think they might be able to do themselves? What’s the perception in the customer’s eyes there?

They do not understand how much they can be helped at all. And to be clear, I don’t know at all what I can do to help when we’re going in. It takes a very collaborative conversation. You need that trust because it’s a lot of back and forth discussion about their environment, their goals as a business, what are they trying to accomplish?

If you start with a managed services conversation, I think you’re going to probably have a high degree of failure because you’re starting the conversation too far in. You need to back up a little bit and talk to them about their business and the why of their decisions. These goals you have, what’s driving them. And once you understand some of the business drivers a little bit more, you can align it. As far as what the managed services providers can accomplish, it’s tremendous because you had this shift from

prem-based applications to cloud and everyone wanted to own it completely and just do it for you. Was that we’re going to outsource it and that was it. Once it’s outsourced, it’s all going to take care of itself. And the reality of that became really clear that it just doesn’t work. You can outsource things, but they’ll never understand your business completely. And I think the modern managed services providers are doing a great job of providing a much more hybrid approach. And we’re seeing that across not just the cloud vertical, but everything else, security as well, that gives the best of both worlds. You still have some of those in-house resources that add to context of your business needs. And then the managed service provider gives you the force multiplier. It gives you the eyes on glass 24-7, 365 that you can’t get in-house for a reasonable price. And I think that’s probably the best value. And the expertise is another thing that you can’t even quantify. Yeah, that’s a good point. Actually, you bring up one I want to highlight. I would say the depth of the resources amongst our supplier base, we just love when that continually expands, expands, expands. I was on a prep call with a supplier this morning. And they brought a plethora of resources to the call. We did a discovery call. We wanted to get how the model goes. We wanted to talk to the suppliers to get ready for it. And he said, here is my– I’d like to introduce you to so-and-so. He’s my Azure expertise, specifically around Cosmos and NoSable tables and Azure’s Kubernetes service right around containerization. Here’s my AWS guy. He knows AWS’s Elastic Container service through and through. I mean, you couldn’t get resources like that years ago, right? That was– Granular and specialized. Yeah. I mean, so granular and specialized. It’s crazy. Yeah. A friend of mine is an Amazon employee. He does the transitions. And I’m blanking on the name of his team. But basically, Amazon will help pay for some of your migration services. The map program. Yeah. Yes. So he– and I won’t share his name, but he told me when he got hired, he was a year and a half in, that he had a folder of all of the new features and functionalities that would come out. And he’d put all those emails, the internal emails, into that folder. And he was working his projects. He had over 500 unread emails after year one. So 365 days in. And he can’t keep up on it. So if an internal employee dedicated to these migrations can’t keep up on it, are you really going to expect an enterprise to be able to staff the individuals to know? And that’s the best entry point, actually, for not just cloud, but for anything is let’s just do a level set and talk about an assessment or something similar to that, right? And I think for cloud, that’s probably my first entry. Do you think you’re optimized fully? How many people really have it completely dialed in? If you are, it’s amazing. But spoiler alert, you’re not. Still waiting to find them. Exactly. Yeah. The unicorn out there, there’s room for improvement. So I love starting with that just because it is impossible to know this stuff backward and forward.

Let’s talk about a win. I think what I love to see is I love to see that the way that the deal ends up is generally not how the deal started. It just seems to be the common thread, right? Because we pull on this, we pull on that thread, we pull on that and we expose it. Oh, we need this thing, by the way, that interconnects here, whatever it is. So walk me through a journey where you got to work with a customer. They said the problem might’ve been X, but ultimately, it ends up being we uncovered all these other things. And here’s the solution that went in place in the end and what it did for them. Wow. That’s kind of hard to pinpoint. You’re making me index 12 years of deals here. Just pick one. Yeah, exactly. Give me a second. Can we take a break? I think the I don’t have any necessarily because of our approach that we started out going in with one particular project and it shifted somewhere else. We certainly discovered things as we pursued a goal because you work with someone for a while, you’ve got your goals and you start down the path and then you turn over a rock or in this case, a few contracts and you start discovering things. I had one customer where we had discovered the CIO had been, I guess maybe I don’t want to use the word embezzling, but he had been finding a way to get money to himself that he probably shouldn’t have been earning. And that was in the course of a project, we were able to find those documents in the paper trail and prove it, which was pretty wild. It was the former CIO, I should say, just to be clear. That was pretty unexpected.

And I think outside of that, it’s hard to think of deals that start in one direction and go a complete. I think that’s a pretty good example. The way that you guys work some of these projects, it just uncovers and pulls in who knows what. It is a little focused. So as it pulls that in, obviously that customer trusts you to say, “Hey, something squirrely has been going on. How can you help us here?” And if you go through battle like that, that’s a customer for life. Without a doubt, you imagine my position where you’re starting to look through these things and you see this consistent… The red alarm for me was the contract kept being renewed and the rates stayed exactly the same. I mean, three years, three more years, three more years. You go 12 years in a row without any reduction in cost. And this is a highly commoditized set of services and it was super suspicious there. So that shifted the workload, I should say, did shift a little bit into research so that we could prove really what those numbers should have been, which was interesting. But I think when you approach the customer’s portfolio tends to, because of the way we’re investigating getting to know their business better, you tend to be doing the projects you anticipate. They don’t shift rapidly.

Yeah. No, it’s fair. And if you can handle somebody calling you with the word embezzling and you can walk through that, like I said, people are not… We all make mistakes. I’m not saying embezzling is okay, not that kind of mistake. But we’re defined how we go to battle, we’re defined how we respond in the trenches when people really, really need us. Because then that shows you true colors, it shows you what you can count on. And obviously that’s established you in a way that, like we said, that customer is going to come to you for… Maybe you only had three projects with that before, but man, that customer’s sitting there going, “Geez, if they could solve this for me, I wonder if they could look at this. I wonder if they could look at this.” That’s just a lifetime value. That is what becomes a lot more fun. And I think you go back to the Differentiator for Portfolio, and this isn’t a commercial for Portfolio, but it’s a pretty cool feeling when someone calls you and says, “Hey, we’re about to think about buying this thing. Is that something you guys can get compensated on?” They shift the way they think about it. And that’s a really gratifying feeling. I have one customer, they’re publicly traded. We appear in their org chart. I mean, it’s pretty cool to see. Portfolio team is one of the little squares there. And I don’t know, I just love that. Feeling like you’re part of a team for these people is a really gratifying feeling for me. And that’s the majority of what gives me the job satisfaction, I think. And back to the shocking discoveries, you should probably have Ray back on again. He probably can’t say too much, but one of my customers, or I should say our customers, because we all sort of share them at Portfolio, he got a phone call and basically the first thing out of the mouth was, “Hey, I need your help. The FBI just left my office.” And he’s like, “You do not expect that in your workday for the type of stuff that we do.” But as especially security becomes more and more of a feature for the average agent out there, more and more agencies, I think, are doing these types of deals, you get kind of parallel to law enforcement with some of these breaches and some of these incidents. So it’s never a dull moment. We got to have, yeah, we got to get that story uncovered. We’ll get, we’ll come back. I don’t know how much he’s going to say about that one. That’s not one. We’ll get him talking. I’m Italian. We can get him talking about it. You’re going to have to bleep out a lot of stuff already. That’s fine. That’s fine. All right. Let’s talk about, I mean, everything about, obviously, there’s a lot of large language models out there, right? There’s OpenAI, Google’s got Gemini, Azure has made all this investment. Now they’ve got CoPilot. And we’re talking about how these providers can elevate that experience. We just talked about it a little bit earlier, this shift of resources is a huge thing for people like you and I, right? Having confidence in the suppliers, the depth around the resources, whether they grow and hire them organically, some of them are out there making acquisitions, either way, that’s a win.

Now, how do you think, put yourself, you guys are ingratiated deeply with these customers, and AI and large language models, specifically because of chat GPT, I think, has really blown it up to where the customers are sitting there saying, “Oh my gosh, what do I have to do?” I’m curious, what’s your opinion on this rush, all these different LLMs, chat GPT? What’s your rush to how these are being pushed and how customers are going to have to approach this? Emerging technology, it’s always the same thing when I see something this fast. I’ve never had an experience in my life where it was at this rate, I don’t know if it’s ever happened. Slow down is the first thing I always say. It’s like, just everyone calm down a little bit. If you think back to when cloud became the hot term, right? And you was every CIO, the CFO, are we going to move to the cloud and save money? And are we going to buy cloud? The CEO would probably say, “Go buy some clouds,” to the CEO, all these ridiculous things that were happening. I guess that would be maybe the early or the mid 2000s to 2010, sometime around there, it started becoming just a really hot button, constant topic. It took a long time before impacts were actually realized in concrete on that. And that shift, when it happened, you could prove the ROI. I think that you look at maybe over a 10-year period and there’s still, like I said, a lot of market left there. This AI journey is going to be similar. I think we’re in that early stage where a lot of people are doing the ready fire aim thing. And I think it’s going to take a few years, not nearly as many as it took with cloud, but it’s going to take a few years before we get to a point where it’s meaningful products, meaningful outcomes, and business outcomes can be predictable. There’s time. So there’s no reason to rush into it. I think having the conversations is certainly interesting. There are products out there that are applied to very specific technologies that are valid. I think the contact center tools, things like that. But I would just urge people to maybe slow down a little bit on that. We’re not quite there yet. Well, you bring up a good point too. I mean, it doesn’t change anything at the end of the day. We have to come back to, we can’t help ourselves, but asking, what are you trying to accomplish? What are you hoping that this tool accomplishes? And sometimes they are going down that path. Sometimes it’s like, no, we’ve got that. And I can help you with that right now in a mature model and something that’s already been out. Yeah. There are certainly applications, but as far as broad scale use and replacing actual human, the actual resources available for another person on the other end, it’s going to be a while before we’re doing a large replacement of staffing. That’s for certain. I think that you look at the differentiator between cloud and the AI that will sort of add fuel to fire is this one from a technology standpoint, there’s not a lot of them that are just readily available to just an individual. I mean, you just pop on and get a chat GPT account and start using it. And you’re going to tell it to write an email to my boss asking for a raise or tell it to write a school term paper. So that kind of exposure will certainly accelerate the adoption, I think. And everything, every iteration of technology goes a little faster than the previous, but I would say it’s probably three to five years before we start seeing some really obvious concrete results, business outcomes that are predictable for this.

Yeah. And I think an interesting way I heard this phrase, I was just doing some research this past weekend and I heard it phrase interesting. And it was, you have the AI naysayers that are like, “Oh my gosh, AI is going to take all the jobs, blah, blah, blah,” all those good things. And that’s certainly one way to look at it. But I think the way that I would caution to look at it is that AI is not here to replace jobs, it’s here to augment. And what it might do as a function of that is it might replace tasks. So people like you and I and the rest of the partners out there, we have to talk to the customers to go, “Okay, you want to use AI, but what are the tasks that this person, these folks might be doing? Let’s help them make them more efficient so that they can then do the high cost functions, the things that you need them to do. And maybe you can use AI to automate one of the 94 tasks that that person does.” And you’ll both thank me after that. We’ll be there a lot sooner, I believe. It’ll make people better at their jobs first. We are very far away from just replacing people. That’s not there. The naysayers, they’ve got that quite wrong at this point. They’re as bad as the chicken littles who think the Terminator, Skynet’s going to be taken over anytime. We’re not there yet either. These things are very far away from the human brain. Yeah. But acceleration of technology, moving pretty fast. It’s wild. Let’s talk about risks in that. Let’s maybe wrap this thought up with,

if I’m an organization and I just don’t want to take you up on these conversations, I don’t want to have it. What’s my risk to an organization if I just bury my head in the sand, I don’t want to look at hyperscaler, I don’t want to look at private cloud, I don’t want to look at AWS? What happens? Oh, from the cloud, not just the AI, you mean the cloud in general. Yeah, AI and cloud. All these things we’re talking about. Let’s talk about risk. So I’ve got a Luddite customer that doesn’t want anything to do with technology.

You’re going to get left behind eventually. It may take a long time. Businesses operate in mediocrity for decades and still somehow hobble along. But I think if you look at the retirement that’s coming from the whole Boomer generation as they continue to leave the workforce, you’re backfilling those with grads who were, for lack of a better term, indoctrinated onto these platforms. They had Azure and AWS and Google as tools that they learned on throughout their years. And so not only are they going to be less willing to go to places that don’t have these types of tools, especially if they have the option, but they won’t be equipped to manage those types of applications as well, I think. So that’s probably one of the challenges. And that’s going to very slowly chip away your business. And I think it will erode it over time. You have to be looking at this a little bit, right? Yeah, no, I mean, that’s a really good way to put it. I mean, I forget that stat too. I read a stat that talked about the amount of folks that will be retiring over the next five to seven years. Is it a quantity more than it’s ever been before? I mean, obviously every generation sequentially has retirement, but the quantity of it to that point, which A, takes knowledge out of the organization, and then B, in that, to your point, I don’t, I wouldn’t want to work at a place that didn’t embrace technology. So you’re losing that top talent. Yep. Yeah, I mean, I have a close friend that worked for Pokemon for an entire career, and he retired, I think three times. I mean, they just kept calling him back up. And are just a couple more years and help out and help get this person up to speed. And that’s, that’s going to be a real unpredictable thing for us in the future. I don’t think quantifying the pain of all those retirements is really hit home yet. So fair. Let’s see final couple thoughts here as we wrap this up. So let’s talk about advice. So you know, you’ve got other partners out there listening, maybe people that are in this area haven’t ventured in kind of down this hyperscaler track or this cloud track, maybe they’re focused on other technology areas. But what’s your advice for another partner out there listening to this that want to jump more into this cloud and into this hyperscaler side, but really haven’t done that they haven’t had those conversations with the customers yet? What’s your what’s your advice there? Don’t be afraid to ask questions of your customers, ask for access to more people, new people in the organization. I think that it’s a guarantee you’re not talking to the right person. And what I mean by that is there’s always more people you can be talking to within the company, try to talk to others. And sometimes we get saddled with the voice guy. And that’s just kind of where we stuck, but you can ask for permission to go have a conversation with someone else. And just by being curious about that, it’s going to help you a ton, open up new opportunities. And the other couple of things I talked to other partners who are doing it. I, try to talk to other partners all the time about the way they’re, they’re making business or doing business and making inroads for new opportunities. It’s, it always surprises me how so many crazy successful partners are doing it in a completely different way. There’s just, there are a lot of ways to be successful in the channel. And I think we’re just in an amazing industry right now. I think sharing that knowledge with others is going to help kind of raise the bar for everyone. And then the final one, not to plug Telarus, leverage the resources you have, your team at Telarus is amazing. I, I haven’t scheduled them yet, but I had a net new customer call on maybe two weeks ago and it was just emphatic yes on everything. I can tell this guy, I will have him as a customer for life. He’s great. I’m going to love working with him. We’re going to do a little mini workshop on security with him. And it’s, he’s asking the question, how do I even get started? I’ve been here one year, I’ve kind of done some cleanup. I know the lay of the land. I want to do some assessment work, and then I want to roadmap how I’m going to get to my end state with the posture I want, but I don’t have those people and he knows he doesn’t. So I’m going to be calling in the big guns from Telarus to come in there and sort of walk through this conception with him. And then he wants to do the same thing with cloud. And I think leveraging those, those resources is so valuable because no one has all the answers. You have to be calling in people off the bench. So don’t be afraid to do that. Ask for help. I run away and I ask Ray for help.

And then he brings up the FBI team again. Don’t ask me any questions until Ray is sitting next to me because he veils me on. For those of you who don’t know, he’s our solution architect and someone who knows so much more about IT than I ever will. I love it. All right. Final thought here. So let’s look at the future of cloud, the future of managed services. So just from Nick’s perspective, you see the supplier landscape, you see how the customers are buying, you see things like talent shortages. I mean, where do you see the cloud managed services going here in the next couple of years? Any innovations you’re kind of on the lookout for or what’s your parting words there? I don’t know if it’s innovation, but like I said, more of these managed services companies are having very smart hybrid approaches to the conversation. More of them are doing the baby step of doing an overall assessment just to give you a health check. Those are great inroads. There is a ton of lagging adopters out there. There are so many opportunities. We have a lot of growth yet to go. I think as next industries, manufacturing is so far behind everyone else. There’s a lot of manufacturing companies out there who are going to be consuming a lot of this stuff. I think growth is the only outlook I see. Innovation wise, I can’t predict that. I need Ray. Can I call in a Telarus resource? Is there a hang on? Yeah, we’ll allow a phone call. I’m going to call Kobe. I’m going to phone a friend here and Kobe can come in and he can answer the question on my behalf, but I still get credit for what he says. Absolutely. Absolutely. Take all of his words as your own. Just like you got to call the expert in and then they do all the smart talking and then the customer thinks that you’re smart somehow, which it just works. It’s a problem. I got to say success looks different all over the place.

I love it. All right, man. Nick, that wraps us up. I really, really appreciate you coming on and doing this, man. A lot of good conversation here. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I love the podcast. Keep it up, man. Awesome. Okay, everybody. That wraps us up. I’m your host, Josh Lupresto SVP of sales engineering at Telarus This has been Elevating AWS and Azure. Until next time, go like, go subscribe, Apple, Spotify, wherever you’re at. Next level BizTech has been a production of Telarus Studio 19. Please visit Telarus.com for more information.