Ep.164- The Art of Discovery Calls: Stories from Military Negotiation with Trevor Burnside
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Welcome to the podcast designed to fuel your success in selling technology solutions. I’m your host, Josh Lupresto, SVP of Sales Engineering at Telarus. And this is Next Level BizTech.
Hey, everybody, welcome back. We got a fun one for you today. On with us today, we have got Mr. Burleyman, Trevor Burnside, solution engineer, Telarus. Trevor, welcome on, buddy. Hey, appreciate it. How’s it going? Dude, I’m excited for this, guys. Today’s title track here, The Art of Discovery Calls Stories from Military Intelligence Negotiation. This is going to get juicy.
All right, Trevor. So everybody knows you, loves you, long time, Telarus.
You’re out there helping partners in deals. And I think we know that piece of it, right? We talked about that. But what I don’t know that a lot of people know is your background, right? And your military and your service and all of that stuff. So maybe just set the stage for us because this is kind of a different call. This is a little bit of a different episode. So set the stage for us, your military deployments, how some of that training, rapport, resistance, all these things, maybe some of the deployments, just set the stage here.
Yeah, yeah.
When I, so I did enlist and I did six years in the military, specifically Army. And when I actually started, I thought I was going to go into communications or intelligence communications or something. I actually went to the recruiter and was going to sign up to do that. And they actually didn’t have any jobs open for the languages I wanted, because I wanted to do some translation. And at the time, they said, Oh, you can only do, you know, Korean. And I was like, I’m not learning that. So anything else, I’ll do any other language. And I’m like, well, you got you can wait six months. And I was like, I’m not waiting six months. I’m here. I’m signing today. And chose human intelligence and went without route. Now, personally, I’m fairly introverted.
So you know, in the in intelligence world, the human terms are kind of known as more like the social butterflies like to talk to people and and not that I don’t like to talk to people, but it’s more, it’s not necessarily my, in my nature, right, to just get out of my shell and talk to people and something I’ve came to learn actually, as some of the best people in human intelligence are introverted, because it’s not something that they is part of their nature, right, they actually have to focus on it. So it becomes something that they get really good at, because they just adopt these principles pretty well of using conversation like a chess game, rather than just saying what comes to your mind kind of thing. So started that did that for a couple years. And coming back into the sales world, I actually just saw that there was so many similarities to it. And a lot of what I’ve learned kind of in the military and talking to people has directly translated to, to the sell side, working with clients, working with people, cold calls, all that kind of stuff, there’s, there’s a ton of things that crossover more than you might, you might think actually.
And from a deployments perspective, can we share anything deployment wise? Are we not allowed to say where you were?
Yeah, no, I can, I can talk about some of that. So I was in Northwest Africa, for a bit of time, and we were going after, you know, ISIS groups that were and other violent extremist organizations that were operating up there, kind of oppressing the local population. So we were working with local government forces to, you know, help them since we had just, you know, kind of gotten out of 20 years of war, got really good at that, you know, following and tracking and all that kind of stuff. So we were helping our partner forces and those nations over there.
Well, first off, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say thank you for your service. We appreciate you.
Thank you.
As we think about key, let’s talk about like key lessons. Maybe what are some of the key lessons from the intelligence training side that you can share that that are applied to, we’ve got advisors listening that are out there trying to build these strong relationships in business, what’s the tie there?
I think what it comes down to, at a at a basic level, is when you’re talking to somebody on a sell side or intelligence, really, the goal there is to convince them of something to change what their normal altered like course of life, right and do something different than they would have done had you not been there. So you’re convincing them you’re using different techniques in that case to align your goals or their goals to your goals and have that be more something you work towards together, right and to accomplish.
So from a, you know, sell side, when you’re working with clients, you’re trying to get them to, you know, see something, adopt something in the new technology, change old technology, all those kinds of things. It’s still the same when you’re working in intelligence of trying to get someone to work with you and provide information to you where otherwise they may not have.
I like it.
Let’s let’s think about let’s build this a little bit. So why, you know, we can’t walk in sometimes we like to walk into these deals, just go, Okay, tell me everything that you need right here. And I’m your person. And meanwhile, they just met us or they just met our the advisor, they just So why, why, why tailor rapport building based on the client? What’s the value there?
So anytime you’re working with somebody is in intelligence and really on the sell side, too, I’d say rapport comes first. Because people on the sell side, people do business with people that they like. And intelligence people work with people that they like, they want to you’re gonna, you know, as the old adage says, right, you’re gonna attract more bees with honey than you are, you know, vinegar, it’s it’s the same way, right?
So rapport comes first and building a relationship, whether that’s, you know, just finding common ground somewhere is going to come before any questioning before any, anything like that. And it’s the same in sales, you know, you get on the phone, talk about sports, you talk about something, find the common ground, and then go from there and build those. So like the small talk stuff, it actually matters. You know, there’s a lot of jokes on that, like online about, you know, the weather and all the small talks on on zoom calls. But in the end, it actually matters. And it builds relationships and lines with people to see the humanity before you actually go into the convincing side of of the conversation.
Is there a, you know, thinking prefrontal cortex primordial? Is what’s the psychological unlock with rapport building that’s custom? Is it is it disarmament? I mean, what what do you see in that?
Yeah, it’s disarmament. I think, in intelligence, we you sometimes you end up working with people that, you know, you really on on any other day, you would just attest, right, or they’re doing things that are abhorrent, or you just can’t get behind. And in those cases, you still have to find a way to find common ground with those people.
And, you know, common terms of like, you know, same, same of like, you like this, I like this, you like this, you know, we’ll find something that we both like, and make it so that I actually don’t focus on the things that I detest about you or the things that I don’t agree with.
We can focus on something that we do agree with. And it’s the same thing that you’re going to run into people that, you know, in this heightened political climate, right, that you just don’t see eye to eye with. And you can focus on the things that we do get along with and, and building that trust is is where that starts of, I like something, you like something, I’m building that trust. And now I understand you and I know you. And you know me, that’s where that kind of starts, at least on the report side.
You know, I like just listening to a podcast to the there’s one out there, ACQ to what these guys do, you know, they have on founders, CEOs, things like that. They had on this guy, longtime CEO for ServiceNow, Bill McDermott, right. And he’s arguably one of the best enterprise sellers of all time. Now he’s, he’s ascended to ServiceNow CEO. But his thing was, I just like to be out there, I like to run loose, let me out there, let me run, let me do these things. And so he had a lot of, a lot of great techniques, I encourage everybody to go check out that episode. But one of the things that he talked about was, you have to, it relates to this kind of building rapport story, you can’t walk into these meetings cold, you have to know more about or know something about that audience to have some sort of custom. I mean, I have to imagine that, that that helps you fall back on what am I going to talk about, right? I don’t want to go right into business, I’ve got to find some sort of common ground to talk to them about, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And even in interrogation or otherwise, we always say the best manual is how to win friends and influence people and starting there, right? It’s open source, that’s not secret, you know, on how to build rapport, be likable with people. That book and those concepts are applicable on sales and really talking with any people really as a day to day job.
Love it.
Okay, so let’s think about I mean, those are some of the obvious reasons. What’s a what’s a non obvious reason to kind of demonstrate the value and incentivize these clients during the conversations? And why is that so key?
Yeah, this is where it kind of gets into the the chess aspect of things, right? Where these are things that we do without even thinking every day, when you’re having conversations with people, with your family, with your friends, we’re all using these techniques. Often, though, we’re doing it without knowing it. So the difference about kind of taking these techniques and understanding them and actually harnessing them for your benefit is where it kind of the secret power comes right, the Jedi mind tricks, so to speak, where you can you can do the cool kind of cool things on the on the convincing side. Now with when you’re convincing someone, it always has to come with an incentive. And we do this, like I said, automatically, and the agent side, we tend to we can almost wrap this with my value, you know, I need to explain my value as an agent or as a partner, and they need to understand my value. Really, that’s, I need to give them the incentive. I need they need to see the incentive of working with me or working with or doing business with my suppliers or whatever that is, it’s understanding that there’s an incentive to doing business with me. And then throughout that process, reinforcing what that incentive is. And sometimes that incentive can actually change per customer or per client, right? Because not everyone necessarily cares about the same thing.
You know, from a partner perspective, my value could be that I help procurement teams. Well, if the client has 25 people on a procurement team, maybe that value is lessened, right? So that incentive is lessened. So I need to provide a different incentive. And we can pivot and change and be different and provide different things to different clients. And I think those where we see, you know, agents that understand that and do that, you know, sometimes second nature, you know, just being able to pivot like that are the ones that are really successful.
So what are think about some of those techniques, right? So the advisors out there, they’re trying to enforce this position during these conversations, maybe give us just some of these narrative building techniques that work.
Yeah. So in conversation, you know, there’s different techniques as far as how to talk to somebody and from an information perspective of
changing their will to my will, right? And what I have to do is create a narrative around that so that it makes it reality for them.
There’s several ways to do this. And I’ll kind of just talk about it in a vague sense, where I can I can pick certain things, what’s going on, and focus on those fear is actually, you know, a driving factor for a lot of people.
And so taking fear, and I can either weaponize it and increase the fear, or I can decrease the fear and use it to my advantage based on how I’m looking at something, right? So let’s for an example, if I have a client who has an old phone system, right, an old phone system that’s still working, they don’t necessarily see a reason why they should change that out. If it’s in my best interest that they change it out, and I can see it’s in their best interest for the business to change it out to go to UCAS or go to a cloud system or something like that, I might want to increase the fear there. And I could say something like, you know, that you’re right about those old phone systems, they’re great until they’re not right. And the bad news, right, is you don’t get to choose the day that they’re not, they just break, and then now you’re, what are you going to do, right? So now I’m building a, you know, the storytelling, or I’m actually creating a narrative to him, and painting that picture that it’s great right now, but one day it won’t be, and you don’t get to choose when that day is. So I’m increasing the fear and giving him a reason that maybe this is something I should think about. If maybe I brought in a carrier, and they’re having some issues, I might want to downplay that fear and say, you know what, I know that this carrier, they’ve had these issues, but I’ve worked with this in the past, we’ve overcome this in the past, it’s not going to be a problem. I know my relationships, I rely on those relationships, and it’s going to carry through. We do these things, like I said, secondhand nature, right? We’re always doing these things, but if we can think about it, and to where we’re using it like chess pieces, we can control the narrative and the conversation.
So you’ve talked about something that I’ve never heard before. It’s this thing called fear down, fear up. So kind of going from the next step of what we talked about, give us some examples of what is fear down, fear up, and how does that, you know, how does that apply to sales combos?
Yeah, so fear down, fear up, it’s kind of like those concept of taking a look at the situation and deciding if I need to bump this up to the fear level, or do I need to take down the fear level? Same from an ego perspective. If I’m working with someone that has high ego, do I want to play to that ego, or do I want to take their ego down? Typically, the negative aspects of like an ego down or a fear up, are that I’m increasing negativity into this relationship.
You know, from a security perspective, there’s things that you could say that you may not be able to come back from. If you really want to crank the dial, right, an example would be, you know, we need to implement cybersecurity with a client, and they just don’t see the value or they don’t see the risk. And if I really want to crank that fear up, there might be ways I might not come back from it, right, where I could say things like, you know, if I were you, I just, you know, the client’s like, I can’t get the budget, you know, I understand, I’ve got risk, I just can’t get the budget. If I crank that all the way up, I could say, well, if you can’t get the budget, I would have your CEO sign off that you’re not responsible for this risk. And if they won’t sign that off, I’d find somewhere else to work, right, you could you can go all the way up and really push your point. But you might not be able to come back from that. So same thing with ego up and ego down, right, you can play to someone’s ego to a point where you’re no longer relevant. Or you can downplay someone’s ego to the point that you’re offending them. So there’s different techniques along those lines of understanding where your client is and what’s going to resonate with them.
And what won’t. Yeah, is that a, is that a read the room upon impact? Is that spend time on LinkedIn and other places understanding where these people have been before and kind of what their career paths are been? Or what’s the, you know, we got so many people that are just walking into meetings that have got referred in and don’t know a ton about the client, what’s your, where do you start?
Yeah, it’s a good question. And all of those kind of narrative approaches to the where these techniques require report or require relationship credit to use. And one, you have to know your person. So you have to have asked enough questions and understand them enough to know just how far to push to get your point across and, and to have them be convinced of something that they should be doing. So report again, goes back to you have to build the relationship and nothing’s going to replace that.
Okay.
The movie Inception while we’re on this track. So you got to watch it first time you think, Oh, this is great. And you watch it a second time and you pick up more a third time. It’s one of those, those movies, right? So in the movie Inception, there’s this idea, this idea planting concept. Can you kind of lay the groundwork for what that is? And then how does that relate? And how is that influential here?
Yeah. You know, the whole premise of Inception, right? As you go deeper into like these dream zones until you get to like, where it’s like their inner thoughts, right? And then you plant an idea and then you shut it and then walk away and back it up and then just let it explode right into and snowball into their own thought.
The same can be from like an analogy can be similar in the sales side, or at least on when you’re trying to convince somebody of something that maybe they’re not as safe as they think they are, right? These little simple ideas on the security side, you know, you’re, you don’t know your risk, you’re not as safe as you think you are. You know, an attack is imminent, right? These things that we can plant in that are inherently true to some degree, they may not be thinking about this all the time, especially if you’re not a cybersecurity person, or, you know, if you’re a phone person, your phone system is going to break or you’re, you know, just from a business perspective, like when you’re talking to a CEO or, you know, decision makers along those lines of your, your competition is adapting to technology faster than you are. Little, little ideas, right? That you can plant and then build a narrative around that, because these things can be true and we can reinforce that. So it’s a little bit of that convincing side, but it’s implementing an idea that becomes theirs and then they start to adapt and they start to adopt it. And now you’re just facilitating it and being a partner to help them get to those goals.
So I guess, you know, the old school way, we were talking about this on a previous podcast was learn this from a partner. I said, you’re really successful in closing some of these UCAS deals. Where are you getting? How are you getting all of these leads? Like, what are you doing? And he would walk around, walk into offices, he would look at the equipment that they had right over the, over the desk, and just see it was antiquated. And he knew there was limitations on it. And he would immediately start understanding that and knowing that. I feel like with what you’re saying now, it’s almost like if a partner is trying to crack into an account, go do some recon on the competitors and see how the competitor’s business and kind of what that customer experience or product experience or whatever it might be, just what that engagement is like. And maybe you leverage that to your, your prospect to say, Hey, do you want, are you aware of kind of what the competitive landscape is on this? Because I did a little bit of recon, is that helpful for you? Is that a, I mean, that’s an angle here.
Yeah, 100%. I think people are, have caught on to like, Hey, if I’m going to talk to a client, I better go to their website and see if they’ve got a chatbot, maybe call their support line and see what that experience is like. Right? Because then I can relay that. But to your point, maybe I call my, their competitors, oh, their competitor has a chatbot, their competitors using AI, I could, their competitor has a great website, right?
That is, you know, potentially stuff that you can use in that conversation to, to build that narrative the way you want it to go.
All right, you got another, you got another concept I’ve heard you talk about. It’s called battle drills. So explain for the audience, what is a battle drill? Because I love this theory. And then how do we incorporate that into our line of questioning? Because we tend to just get a lot of information and we just miss stuff.
Yeah, well, battle drills, generally speaking, in the military are, are, you know, pre pre planned ways of how we’re going to respond to something, right? SOPs or standard operating procedure, TTPs, the mix of SOP and TTP kinds of ends up being those battle drills, right? When we get, you know, attack from the right, we’re going to do this, when we get attacked from the left, we’re going to do this, you know, this kind of ambush, this is the way we’re going to escape that ambush. Those are all battle drills.
In the intelligence side, we have battle drills as well. And then specifically in, you know, when you’re doing negotiation or debriefings or things like that. The battle drills that we have are when I hear certain things, I’m going to do something every single time. When I get when this happens, this is my battle drill. In a very simplified way, when if I’m talking or doing a discovery call, or doing an interrogation or otherwise, when I hear nouns, I’m going to notate them and then battle drill them, meaning I’ve got a pre set up list of questions or things I need to know about this noun. So, you know, person, place, thing, all those things, right? From an IT perspective, firewalls, servers, you know, workstations, even people, right? I want to know everything about them. The reason we do a battle drill so we can fully exploit those things, those nouns, and exploit sounds sinister, right? But when you think about it, what it means is I it’s really just discovered, I need to fully discover whatever these things are.
So from a server perspective, or firewall, the make model, oh, you know, the firmware that’s running on it, right? How old is it? Do they like it? Is it functioning? Who’s looking at the logs? All those things, right? That we want to do.
From a battle drill perspective, if someone gives me a line and says, we have two firewalls and three servers, and 10 people on staff, right? Those are, I have three things I need to battle drill right there. So what I would do is I’d stop the conversation, battle drill the firewall, get everything I need from that, battle drill the servers, and then ask about the people. So I’ve gone through those three things, exploited them to the fullest. And now I can move on to the next sentence. If I assume I know some of these things, and I don’t ask questions, that’s where we run into issues afterwards, when we do the debrief with a partner or with a supplier, and they’re like, they’re doing backup, backing up to where? What’s the backup target? They’re like, oh, well, I guess I didn’t ask that. They just said they’re already doing it. So I didn’t find out, right?
A lot of those, or we talked to partners and some of the success stories, it’s like, we asked this one question, and it opened up the opportunity, right? To be bigger than it ever was. And that’s on our team, right? On the engineering team, that’s where we specialize.
I don’t necessarily think we know this, but it’s because we’re exploiting and we’re fully battle drilling these things to get, you know, how old is your hardware? Oh, it’s up for refresh. Boom, new opportunity. Now we have a hardware refresh. Oh, you’re backing up to an on-prem NAS? What about cloud? Oh, you’re not doing any cloud? Boom, another opportunity, right? It’s these exploitations that we do internally with our on the discovery calls that really make these opportunities much, much bigger and where we have success. And the battle drills, doing them over and over again and getting good at them is what makes that success repeatable, where you can do it every time.
You know, I love this. And I think you’re right. I think there’s a theme in the beginning you talked about of there are some of these things that we’re going to talk about that we just inherently do. And we don’t know that it’s, you know, so important to do them. Maybe sometimes we do them, sometimes we don’t, but I love thinking about discovery calls in the frame of a battle drill, right? Because it’s repeatable, it’s scalable, nothing gets missed. And to your point, I think the value that we’ve seen, the partners, the feedback, right, from having folks like yourself on the discovery call is, my gosh, we thought we were going to come in for a VDI opportunity. And we walked out with a VDI opportunity, a security opportunity, a backup opportunity. And now the customers are sitting here going, “Yeah, I mean, I didn’t know that you could help me with all of this stuff.” Right? And I love that process of just a layer deeper. And they’re not, you know, it’s not this crazy, it doesn’t have to be this crazy, overly technical conversation. To your point, I think we just know where some of these things break down. And we might hear this, “Oh, I have this database or I have this server, I have this whatever.”
And maybe before you’d hear, “Oh, and it’s maintained by X.” And that might be a, you know, from an objection handling perspective, that might be the place that we stop. We’re like, “Oh, it’s handled by X, we don’t want to step on X’s toes.” But I like your line of stealing your battle drill line here of, “Yeah, but how’s it going? How is that? How’s that experience being like that’s managed over there?” And some of the wildest opportunities have came when there wasn’t anything seemingly in an hour of discovery call. And then we asked, “Oh, by the way, how’s it going?” “Oh, actually, you know, it’s going okay.” But it turns out that giant piece of equipment in our infrastructure is being decommissioned from the MSP that’s managing it. That’s not anything you can help us with, is it? Absolutely. Right? So I think you’ve seen story on story. And maybe at the end of this, it’s just, “Hey, we help you with a lot of things. We uncovered six or seven things. What’s the most important?” Like, how do you go from discovering so much to then focusing in on what we handle first? What’s your process there?
I mean, that comes back to working out with the rapport side and figuring out what their priorities are. And then also kind of what your priorities are, what do you want to focus on first, right? From what’s going to get you in the account fastest and what’s going to keep you in there longest. You know, what’s going to be sticky, right? Sometimes it’s balancing those of like, “Hey, licensing can be fast. We can get in the door with licensing. Then we can work on some of these bigger stuff.” That could be a tactic you want to go down. Or it could be, “Hey, their priority is this. And they’re not going to do anything else until we solve that. Then I’m going all in on that.” So really, the success comes down to, “Do I have the rapport? Do I have a relationship? And I’m asking the right questions.” And if you do the follow techniques correctly, you’re going to make the both of those line up and you’re going to be successful. And you’re not going to miss information and you’re not going to miss opportunities when they’re presented.
With Battle Drill specifically, what I would recommend and what I did in interrogations or debriefing is, you know,
person, place, thing, whatever my nouns are that I need to focus on, write down what those questions are, or at least one word, right? Age, OS type, model, you know, those things. Because even if you’ve been doing it for a long, long time, which a lot of people on this call have been,
our brains aren’t great at remembering things, especially when we’re in the heat of a conversation. We’ve got other things going on, right? So memory is something that, you know, if we’re doing a Zoom call, we can all have our notes up and just have things to remind us and have those ready so that we’re not missing stuff. If we’re not missing it, we’re going to ask the questions and we’re going to have the opportunities.
One thought before we go to wrap this up. I want to talk book recommendations for a second because you drummed me up. Thoughts for a couple. So we threw out Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. That clearly still applies. No reason to, no surprise. It’s a number one best seller.
You and I and a few others on this team, we have shared Chris Voss. All right, Chris Voss is this ex-counter-terrorism, hostage negotiator turned business consultant.
You know, I think he’s got some great books out there. What is it? How to, how to, how to depend, how to negotiate like your life depends on or something. I forget the title. Yeah. He’s got some good masterclasses out there. Any other,
never split the difference. Sorry, that’s the one I was thinking of.
Yeah.
Yeah. Any, any other books, any other resources, any places to see your people like this? Is that, is that enough to get people started?
No, I think, you know, for the other fellow introverts out there, right, that are in sales or otherwise, there’s a book called The Charisma Myth by Olivia Cabane,
which talks about how charisma, while some people just naturally have it, it’s also can be learned, right? It’s, there’s a science to it. It can be learned and you can be likable. And that’s where it already starts, right? You can, from a discovery call, you can do multiple discovery calls and miss stuff and come back to things. But to be likable and have someone want to do business with you is really where it all starts, right? So yeah, charisma myth, really, really good. Even if you are a social butterfly, I think it’s good to like, you know, there’s a lot of practice things in that book that you can do to just get better.
Just the right mix. They define it just the right mix of warmth and the right mix of power.
Okay. The people know you have some stories, Trevor. I know a lot of them you probably can’t share. But take us out here.
Let’s go. Let’s go. Funniest story that you can share in your military past that is not classified.
Yeah, yeah.
There’s one actually I was thinking about the other day, I brought it to a friend. That was pretty funny. So I was on actually deployment in and, you know, I was working with the French military a lot, we were doing intelligence things, I was doing translation and all this kind of stuff. So one day, we have this meeting because we’re doing an operation, joint operation, and I go in to meet them and me and my boss and then a bunch of the French military people.
And we’re talking and then during this meeting, a woman walks in a French woman walks in and everyone stands up. And so we obviously stood up and she starts going around and kissing people on the cheek, right in France, when they meet someone that they know, they kiss them on the cheek. And then, you know, that’s their greeting, right? So she’s, you know, they’re going through the room like four or five people deep and then I’m in line. And I see this coming. And I’m thinking, well, I guess this is what I’ve been trained for, right?
Like this is I’m just going to take one for the team and we’re going to move on. And I’m going to like I can do this. It’s no big deal. I don’t care. So she comes up to me and puts her hand out and I go for her cheek and I kiss her on the cheek. And the like she has this bewildered look on her face. So then my boss told me later I had this panic look on my face. And in France, they’re all like, in French, they’re talking like, Do you know him? Like, do you know? How do you know this guy? Like what’s going on? I didn’t know at the time that like you do this for people you’ve like, you’re actually close with. And like, she’s like, No, I’ve never met this person in my life. So she was nice about it and kind of played it off. My boss is like dying laughing. He didn’t do it. Because, you know, he’s smarter than I am.
played off the meeting. I didn’t couldn’t read the ranks. But ends up, she’s like, outranked everyone in the room was this general. So lesson was, I guess, you know, don’t kiss French generals on the cheek when you’re an American, nobody. But yeah, I love a funny story, more embarrassing than anything. But yeah, one of those, one of those times, I guess, just just when you think you’ve read the room, like, yeah, always surprises when you exactly when you think you’re the master of human connection. And yeah, in walks the French general.
Awesome. All right. Good stuff, man. That that wraps us up. I love this. I think this has been there’s a lot of good things in here that we’ve we can tend to use on a daily basis. I think our advisors get a lot of value out of this. I really appreciate everything you do. Appreciate you coming on and awesome knowledge drop in. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks for your time. All right, everybody, that wraps us up for today. As always, don’t forget whether you’re coming to us on Spotify on Apple Music. Go follow, go subscribe so you can get these as soon as they drop every Wednesday morning. And you won’t miss out on cool stuff like this. Trevor Burnside, solution engineer, Telarus, this has been the art of discovery calls stories from military intelligence negotiation. Until next time.
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